after the first three seminars which
were a success, the one on good practices in research,
the one on ethics committee and open science, mentoring, women in science
and university, we start this fourth one which is diversity,
equity and inclusion at UC3M.This fourth seminar,
like the previous three, is framed within the scope
of the HRS4R logo and is a fundamental
point, it is a fundamental part of all the policies that must be
developed within a research centre and a university
like ours. There are going to be two discussion panels
and a first presentation by the deputy vice-rector Montserrat
Abad and if you like we can start with this presentation.
I haven't said it but the session is being recorded and therefore
you should all know that the whole session will be available
through the corresponding links
on the website. if you like Montse,
it would be your turn. great, thank you very much. well, rather than
a presentation it is an introduction. we are going to attend a debate
on essential things diversity equity inclusion
and we can ask ourselves if any of these three
elements is more important than the other two and I think
we will have the opportunity to think about it. the first panel
is about equality what can we say when
neuroscience warns that 99.9% of us
have some kind of conscious or unconscious prejudice
towards people we consider not to be
like us and who we do not consider to be one of our own?
the premise is, obviously, that we are all the samewe belong to
the human race, which by the way is the only race that exists,
but at the same time we are also different every human being is
unique with individual biometric data
such as fingerprints or the iris of the eyes
or DNA or other differentiating elements. some are perceptible
to the naked eye and some are not, but all, unfortunately, have in practice
become reasons for discrimination throughout
historyand even now because of differences such as gender,
ethnicity, skin colour, national origin, religion
or belief, sexual identity or orientation, language,
disability, political opinion, social or
economic status or age. to confront abhorrent scourges
from racism to problems such as intolerance or inequality, we need
much more than politically correct words and even
more than policies and regulations. some of these factors of discrimination
may be addressed at this first panel but others will not,
this time like gender, which has already been the subject of last
month's seminar the truth is that we would need at least a whole seminar for each of these issues.
the panel table refers to the need to apply an
integral, holistic approach, as requested by the European Charter for
Researchers and the Code of Conduct for the Recruitment of
Researchers, and we must bear in mind what its objectives are,
which is to ensure that the relationship between researchers
and employers or funders is conducive to the generation of
knowledge, technological advances, transfer to
society and also the professional development of researchers.
the Charter therefore also promotes all forms
of mobility at all stages of careers and in all
public and private spheres, while ensuring that
interruptions are not penalised. many questions
come to mind for the future: should the Spanish university
strategically promote the attraction of more diversity,
what barriers are in the way, how can they be removed,
how can the university help to combat discriminatory ideologies
and the xenophobic and homophobic feelings that
are resurfacing, what are the real keys to make the culture of inclusion more rooted in
people's consciences and how can diverse mobility
be encouraged? diversity is an issue that
raises a lot of hackles, no one wants to be accused of discrimination,
for example Queen Elizabeth II this week ordered
a review of the diversity policy of the British
Royal Household.diversity is necessary
because it is necessary to reflect the plurality of society but
we are not only talking about issues of human
rights and ethics, we are also talking about efficiency
This is something that is becoming increasingly important in environments that have
nothing to do with universities, such as multinational
companies, for example, where the only driving force
is the achievement of economic profit and where the combination
of diversity and inclusion is being pursued especially now
because it is linked to clear added value insofar as it increases
innovation and contributes to maximising the
organisation´s potencial there is
a clear answer that answers the questions
I raised a moment ago and that is equity. for this reason,
all the members of the team that have designed today's
event believe it is necessary for equity to appear in the title
itself because it is the most important element, the one that gives meaning
to the others and the one that, in the end, prevents simple
metric data from being accumulated.equity is the virtue of justice in the
specific case and presupposes equality. it is a question of values
that we can proudly say have been present in the
case of the Carlos III university since its foundation.
it is something that transcends and must transcend ideologies
because the aim is the search for excellence in knowledge
and commitment to society. it is not only the governing bodies
of the university that make decisions in this area;
in the end, each and every one of us can do something
in our day-to-day work,
for example when we are principal investigators on projects
or simply as colleagues at work.
Therefore, we thought it best to build this meeting around the
personal experiences that our speakers
could share. We are looking forward to listening to them,
they are great guests and we will be able to induce valuable lessons
but let our moderators introduce them, it is my turn to
introduce the hosts of the programme, our also splendid
masters of ceremony. Álvaro Escribano is
full professor of applied economics and director of the international school
of the Carlos III university and will be the moderator of the first
discussion panel and Susana Roza will lead the second one. she is a well-known
journalist, presenter in different media and
founder of Mejor Dicho. thank you very much to all of you and
go ahead, so I will pass the floor to the first moderator, whenever
you want Álvaro thank you very much for your presentation and thank you
very much for inviting me to be on this very important discussion panel
that deals with profound issues and on which we
are going to be able to comment on all of them with four speakers that I will
gradually introduce. As a professor who has worked at the Carlos III
University since it was created in 1980 and 1990, I can
confirm what Susana has said, from the presentation
of what Montse has said, sorry, from the presentation of
what the values have been since the creation of the
Carlos III University, and I can confirm that these values
that I have mentioned from the beginning were very present
So much so that the multiculturalism that we are going to discuss today was
in the DNA of the creation of the university itself, that is why
I remember the first discussions when I entered the university
with our first rector Gregorio Peces-Barba where we talked
about how we could attract talent from all over
the world to ensure that the university is a diverse
university and for this one of the key elements was the introduction
of degrees and that the English language was one of the almost
official languages, so to speak, of the Carlos III University.
this has built us over time, the years that we have been
at the university, has allowed us to bring students from
all over the world and also professors, which is what I think
is important today since we are talking about research.
We have to remember that most of the major international
research programmes that exist in the world today
are in English.
if we want to attract the great human capital that exists and we want
to attract them to Spain, we have to be a diverse,
open university and for this we not only have, as I said, to attract professors
from all over the world, but also the university itself
in its own structure and organisation.
has to accept that diversity is desirable
and therefore we have to welcome all
those who are different from us and also those who
are obviously the same as us. to this end,
great efforts have had to be made both by the administration and
services staff to adapt to this idea of a bilingual university
and by all the university bodies and institutions to
welcome teachers and researchers who did not
necessarily speak Spanish.I therefore believe that it is
in the DNA of our university to allow and fight for
diversity to be an element of wealth. So, without further ado,
I am going to start the first discussion panel, which deals with
diversity and ethical principles and, above all, focuses on equality
and non-discrimination. The first speaker
will be Yuko Morimoto, and the global theme
we are going to deal with is academic work in
socially, ethnically, linguistically and culturally diverse environments.
Yuko Morimoto is a professor at the Carlos III University,
she is the director of the Asian studies programme
in the international school that I direct, she is also the vice-dean
of student orientation in the faculty of humanities
and communication, she is Japanese but she speaks Spanish
and writes Spanish better than I do.there is an explanation, at the end,
you can see in her CV that she has a PhD in Hispanic philology
from the Complutense University of Madrid,
she has a lot of teaching experience and that's all, Yuko,
if you like I'm going to give you the floor and
ask you a first question. I, as a way of organising the discussion panel,
for all of you, I would ask the four of you who are going to participate,
I am going to ask you more or less two questions that
you can obviously answer as you see fit and also add things,
but please try to keep to no more than four minutes for each
answer so that we all have time at the end
to answer questions from the audience.so, a first
question to Yuko would be what are from your point of view the advantages
of having a university that is multicultural?
OK, good afternoon everyone, before answering this very interesting
question, I wanted to thank you for the opportunity to participate in this forum and
the truth is that when I received the invitation from Montse, thank you very much, but
it took me a few minutes to realise what kind of diversity
I could be representing in a forum like this, very sincerely, what
does it mean, it means that we can certify what Montse has said,
also Álvaro, that in this university, even a person like me so to speak,
a non-EU researcher forgets that she comes from abroad.I don't know if it's good
or bad, but the degree of integration that can be achieved is,
in my opinion, complete. because, as I said, I am being called because
I am the vice-dean of student guidance, because I deal with
very diverse students. when I realised, I said my God,
this is the first time as a research professor in
Spain, I started in 1996 in the Spanish
university, not in the Carlos III university where I have been since 2005,
that I had been given the opportunity to talk about this, I had not imagined that I would be able to do so.So, thank
you very much I understand that I have to answer the first question very quickly but
in a way that can meet the expectations of all
of you who are listening to us.I obviously believe that one of the functions
of the university is to prepare our future, our students
for the future, and I think we all share this conviction that
this future is inevitably globalised and diverse
and in various senses, not only ethnically but in various senses.
And on the other hand, it is also true that our student body, our
campus, is already globalised, diverse, in many senses due to the
policy of internationalisation, inclusion and equity that
characterises the modern university, and I would add, European and Spanish universities
such as Carlos III. and so, in this sense,
I think that the advantages or
the need for us, the faculty,
to represent this diversity in a natural way are quite obvious. if I have one more minute,
I would add, in addition to what I have just said, there is no doubt that the diverse environment,
we have to avoid something,
if we want to be leaders in the intellectual and scientific world,
which is mental stagnation, of, let's say, a psychological scheme.
So I think that diversity guarantees a much broader
perspective and for me it is important to say flexible, because
it is much more stimulating than a unit, a homogeneous institution.
Yuko, thank you very much for answering the first question and I have a second
question, from your point of view, what do you think are the
challenges and what are the barriers that need to be overcome in order
to have a university that is truly fully diverse and
multicultural?yes, well, I will avoid talking about the institutional,
which we all know, the equalisation of what we can expect living abroad
in terms of status and expectations for the future, to be comparable to
the local, let's say European members, which of course is something we are working on I focus more on an approach that
could perhaps be shocking, could even be
controversial, but I believe that the key is something more attitudinal or
mentality of the people belonging to this diverse environment
and I am not only referring to those who consider themselves insiders, but
also those of us who consider ourselves or come from outside. we also have
to change our attitude, our mentality, and in what sense,
because it is something that is rarely talked about but, in many
diverse groups, the dynamics of homogenisation, the dynamics
of levelling out or the dynamics of making us all look the same
is quite strong.and this translates into an erroneous equation for me
of equality, integration, equals liberation or
homogenisation and this, I repeat, is not due to imposition, it is often due to the very desire for assimilation,
integration.we must not forget that many of us, in
trying to integrate, have had to learn a new language
and this also means such important codes of conduct
that guide us in the processes that are so important
for researchers, which could be negotiations,
debates, discussions, decision-making. so
I think we have to create an environment in which we can avoid
thinking that what is different is not a burden for the others.it could be a cultural thing,
I come from Japan and I say, I can't bother others because of my characteristics, but I have to recognise
that maybe, in some occasions, I can contribute more
because I am differentand this is something that is
quite difficult to convince them, to make the most of the
diversity, I think we also have to be careful to avoid
chaos because of the different codes of conduct and communication, of values, but there should be
a balance in which we can take advantage of the diversity and at the same time that
everything works more or less smoothly because in an institution this is necessary. Perfect Yuko, thank you very much
I think you have perfectly detected the necessary flexibility in the
organisation and also in the mentality of the people who work
in the university so that diversity can really be
exercised in a fluid way. and I think you have found the key
to this, thank you very much. Secondly, we have Alfredo Corell at
the panel, Alfredo has a PhD in biology from the
Complutense University of Madrid, he trained as a specialist
in immunology at the 12 de octubre hospital and has worked in
a wide range of research areas, including, for
example, publishing more than sixty articles in international
impact journals, He has directed six doctoral theses,
is currently a professor at the University of Valladolid
and is also vice-rector of teaching innovation and digital transformation
at the same university and has received several important awards,
just to mention one of them, the Medes 2018 award
and the Lilly foundation for the best initiative for the dissemination
of Spanish in biomedical sciences. So Alfredo, welcome
and thank you very much, I am going to ask you a first question so that in about four
minutes you can answer and add whatever you want, but
how do you see, based on your experience in the university environment,
which initiatives you would like to highlight
in the area of sexual diversity?
hello, good afternoon Ávaro, thank you very much and thanks also to Nacho, Montse
and Arancha for the invitation to this wonderful conference, this
seminar. I have been asked to take part in this type of seminar very
recently and the truth is that it is an honour for me to participate and
probably an undeserved honour. I have always been someone who has kept
the issue of diversity very much in the distance and
well, it is only until there has been some kind of big
and very visible macro harassment that I have come to the forefront a little bit more.
and I think that in this sense we are a
bit late, at least from the universities
and the institutions. But there are a couple of very recent
initiatives that I think we should highlight
and perhaps for all the people who attend, if you don't know them, well,
if you don't know, they are starting to ring a bell and to participate in them, if you don't know,
in 1990, specifically on the 17th of May, was the moment
when the World Health Organisation stopped considering
homosexuality as a mental illness and precisely
because of this, on the 17th of May every year,
the international day against LGTBI phobia is celebrated.to commemorate
this, last year, just last year, in the year
2020, we were still in confinement, we are talking about
the 17th of May, the first LGTBI inter-university working group
was created at the request of two Spanish universities,
the University of Granada and the University of Salamanca,
a working group was set up and they signed up and made a manifesto
and a total of thirty universities adhered to this
manifesto. to highlight some of the fundamental
aspects of what this working group intended
at its birth and which I believe has not yet been put
into action because, well, the universities
in particular have focused on saving the academic year
last year in the way that you all know how complex
it was and to carry out this academic year 20/21 in this secure
presence or duality that some of us have done with many
complications. So, among the lines that this working group,
let's say foundational, had, were
to study the LGTBI competences of each university, how
this issue was dealt with, if the competence was in the hands of a vice-rectorate
or in a social area, where the
the competences were.
not only for teaching staff, but also for administration
and services staff and students themselves, training in
active and affective-sexual diversity.thirdly, attention to LGTBI people
to ensure their free expression and
equality on campuses.
fourth, to put in place mechanisms to prevent harassment
and attacks against LGTBI people.
fifth, to work on protocols in institutional regulations to
guarantee the rights of the whole group and to guarantee equality on campus.
sixth, in terms of teaching and research, because all of what I have
said previously is academic and campus life, in terms
of teaching and research, to ensure that the LGTBI perspective is
incorporated into the syllabus in a cross-cutting manner,
even in research projects finally,
to create observatories to monitor this whole process.
These are seven, the seven pillars or the seven strategic lines
of action that this group is committed to. What I can tell you from the
side of the University of Valladolid is that yes, we have tried to
get this group started and to bring together the four universities
of Castilla León, at least four public universities, in a kind
of LGTBI Castilian-Leonese consortium, and well, we are working
on it. but apart from signing the manifesto, there is
little else I can say that has been done and in 2019, a year before,
we are talking about the last two years, a group
of different groups, from different institutions,
including many university students, some from research institutes,
suddenly called me to set up an association called Prisma which is
the association for affective, sexual and gender diversity in
science, technology and innovation. I joined this
association and to my surprise they are putting
images of me on the screens in the presentation slides
of the association, they have even met with the
Minister of Science at the time to present the association
and well, this association is having quite an impact
and now they are interconnecting with universities, which is the other part
that I have told you about. They have six main lines of action
to avoid discrimination and to increase the visibility of the group,
to promote training, which we have already talked about in the universities.
to promote interest in science and technology
among the group, to give an LGTBI perspective
to all studies, to build a scientific community that provides
support and mutual support, that is to say, to form a group
and collaborate with other associations, societies and
academic structures. so, even though 2019
and 2020 are very new, this is very good news. thank you very much Alfredo
As you have told us, you have a great deal of experience in
this area, I wanted to ask you a very specific question:
are the protocols really working? We know,
as you said, that there is still a lot to be developed, but do you
think that the existing protocols are working or what needs to be
done to ensure that there really are protocols that are easy to
implement and have real effects in the
fight against sexual harassment and so on? Well look, in my own experience
they are not working Álvaro, I can tell you that, the thing is that I also understand that
here there are probably different speeds and different
actions, also very much depending, and you will allow me
the difference, that the institution, the university, the research
centre is in a big city in a smaller city
the perspectives are very different.
in our case, in our university there have been cases of harassment,
I suffered one of them just a couple of years ago and nothing works.
then when you go to report it and when you get into the
process of seeking protection and advice,
it is not very well defined.I was taken to the ombudswoman
of the university community
she told me: "yes, but I don't have any jurisdiction and I can't
investigate and I can't open the videos".
What they did at the university was that for three nights they filled
all the university buildings with papers saying:
Corell, faggot and socialist.and well, these were on stairs,
on notice boards, on the door of the university, I didn't see
them, the cleaning ladies decided in the early hours of the morning when
they were cleaning, which indicated that they put them up at a very late
hour, at ten o'clock at night or so, and the cleaning ladies
who came in at dawn removed them.and what happened was
that one day some of them must have been left without reacting and
the students saw it. once the papers were within reach of the students,
they took photographs, they were spread through social media
and well, it had the impact that it had.I found out about it long after
it had happened and well, they told me, you have to report it.there was
very strong pressure from the teaching staff, even from
the administration and services staff of the faculty
who didn't want it to be known, it was like a stain on the institution itself.
and no, if we have hidden them, we have removed them,
we have cleaned them up and that's what I'm saying, you feel a bit helpless
because you don't know who to turn to, what to do, I in particular
went to the ombudsman, the ombudsman finally sent me to the police
to file a complaint. the police did a bit of an investigation,
well to my understanding, to save the file and nothing came of it
but nobody dared to look at the videos.
the only thing that could really be done was either to interrogate people
or to watch videos to see if they could detect who had done this.
Alfredo do you think it is a problem of lack of regulation or of
the mentality of the management team who did not take this
as an important issue? I think there is a lack of regulation because finally
I also stopped the media impact when I went to the police,
the police told me to report it on social media
to see if we could get some testimony from someone who
had seen something and finally it had a lot of impact,
it appeared in the media, nothing was ever discovered,
it was shelved or well they say they don't shelve it, they say it
stays, well, it's like the file is dormant.but you are left with
the slap in the face and with the feeling for many weeks,
until I finally got over it, that I was walking down the corridor
of the faculty and the person or persons who had done that
were with me, in the classrooms if they were students,
or in the corridor if they are colleagues of the teaching or
administrative staff, and I haven't seen anything change, that is to say, no
pedagogical action has been taken, that is to say, well then,
we are going to work on the issue, nor any technological action,
that is to say, well then, we are going to put in place video surveillance and we are going to control
so, you find yourself in a situation, well, you have to solve
it yourself.and I had the wonderful luck that my partner at home supported me
and a lot of people in the community supported me, the rectorate itself supported me, it appeared in the
media and the Junta de Castilla y León wanted me to
appear with the education councillor at a press conference
and I said: look no, I no longer need the education council
to put on the medal that it supports me, I need
mechanisms to be put in place so that this does not happen again
to anyone. yes, I totally agree, in this sense, if
this discusion panel surely serves to draw attention to this issue, I
am convinced that the members of the university governing bodies
have a lot to do to insist and to transfer
to the CRUE that these elements are important and that
the university, if it is to be diverse and respect its professors,
must take all these things seriously.Corell thank you very much for your testimony
then we will certainly continue talking about it but let's move on to
the third speaker who is Maria.
the topic we are going to talk about now is functional diversity disability and
our guest speaker is María del María del Mar Jiménez Navas.María del Mar
has a doctorate in law and has participated in numerous international
and national congresses. She has more than thirty publications in areas
of recognised prestige and has always been dedicated to issues of gender
equality and above all she is an expert on tax matters and above all
on situations of disability and taxation in the area of
sales tax for individuals.She is also the coordinator of
the Master's degree in commercial legal advice and is a lecturer
at the University of Seville. thank you very much María del Mar for being
here with us and I am going to ask you a first question in your
personal experience, what kind of barriers have you encountered in your
academic and professional life due to your
disability?Good afternoon, first of all, I would like to thank the Carlos III
University of Madrid for inviting me to be here
and I am delighted to be here and delighted that a conference of these characteristics
is being held, which not only benefits people who have something that is
considered diverse, but I believe that it is a benefit for
the whole of society. I am a blind person, absolutely totally blind.
there are people who are visually impaired, in my case I am not
that lucky, I can't see anything at all and have acquired blindness.when i was
sixteen i had an accident and well, when i was eighteen
i was completely and totally blind. so the difficulty in the first thing
is to adapt to a new life that is totally unknown to me, which is
blindness.blindness is, as I say, it's my second career and that's also
what I had to learn, you have to learn to be blind I was
interested in studying law before I lost my sight and it was
my dream since I was a little girl, I always wanted to study it and well, the law
attracted me maybe a little at first because of the films and so on and
well, when I lost my sight at first I discarded
this possibility because I thought that many of my hopes in
this sense were already lost but well, you start to inform yourself,
you start to ask, you see that the braille system exists and you think,
well, if I have the desire and I think I have the strength, why
don't I try it, well, first I learn to be blind, I learn
braille, a lot of tiflotécnicos devices that are called
to adapt, I finish the courses in which I stoped because
I was still blind at school and I start my degree. I started my degree
with a delay of two years, I started my degree when I was twenty years old
and with deficiencies when it came to reading and writing and
all that because I was still using children's books
but now in Braille.but well, I start to study,
I see that I not only like the degree, but that I am passionate about it,
that what I thought was beautiful, is not beautiful, but it is
precious and that I really, really want to get the most
out of it however I can because I enjoy every class I am given at the
faculty and every class my teachers give me. I start to see that
not everything is so beautiful and that some textbooks I can have them
on time and I can take the exam on time and other textbooks
are not so on time and I can't take the exam
on time and that can bring a detriment in my marks,
I don't want that, for that I was a monster, I said that as I got less than a nine
that is a mental illness for me, and I start to fight for it.
I bought a scanner and started to scan the books, hours and hours of scanning, I looked for
people who could record books and I started to somehow
solve all those difficulties that I had because of my blindness.
these are the first difficulties that a
blind person who wants to pursue a serious career, a career with
good qualifications and then dedicate myself to what I have dedicated myself to, has to
make people understand that they have to do their best and use all
the means at their disposal to do so, because they cannot
wait, if you will forgive me, for others to somehow get us
off the hook because I'm sure that the others try
to get us off the hook but it takes time,
and the penal exam is tomorrow and the international exam is
in two weeks and if you wait you don't get a ten, you get a five
or you may fail and then your career could be cut short in this
sense.so I spent hours and hours scanning books, hours and hours writing
books in braille and paying money so that people who could see
to read books and class notes of other classmates
who could take them more easily than I could. well, it all ends with me internalising this
as something normal in my life, as if I have to make a quite strong
previous effort to put myself at the same level
as the rest and start working.and I understand that as something absolutely
natural and that's how I keep on going And when I finished my degree, a professor of
financial and tax law, Don Antonio
Cubero Truyo, suggested that I do a thesis in the department of financial
and tax law and that he would record all the projects that I
wanted to do, so I said baby, this is your chance because you are not
going to find another one, that is, a blind person who is going to be sought out
to do one of these things, you have to get on this
train because in a private law firm.
María del Mar let me take advantage of the fact that you have divided your presentation into two
parts, on the one hand your experience as a student and now you were just starting
your experience as a teacher to ask you your second question
because this is very important, what do you think we should do,
what should we do? you are obviously a pioneer, many
will benefit from everything you have done, but from the point of view
also as a teacher, today as a researcher, what do you think
should be done so that not everybody faces the same
barriers that you have faced?Well, things are very tough at the moment Álvaro,
things are very tough at the moment, we now,
well, I don't know how many blind teachers there are in Spain, I don't
really know, but well, I really had a very bad timefrom a teaching point of view,
as a teacher I have absolutely no problem,
when I teach, blindness stays out of the class, it never
enters with me, I enter alone and in a law class there is
absolutely no problem, blindness does not appear
in any case, in fact, the students' surveys I have all of them since I was a scholarship holder
until now, outstanding from the students,
I also have awards for teaching excellence because, because
it is not an inconvenience for me to explain myself as a blind person.
law cannot be seen, law can be understood, understood and explained,
the problem is research, the problem is to scan
not a six hundred page law book but many books,
many articles to construct an article. it is no
longer going to another university to listen to a lecture,
it is no longer that you have to go abroad to do a stay with
a guide dog to learn a totally different field you don't have to
learn only the university of destination, you have to learn where there is a
pharmacy, where you are going to live, where there is a supermarket
when I finish learning that, I have to go back
to Spain and the enjoyment of my stay and the value that I have
gained from my stay abroad will be null but Aneca
asks for it and Aneca does not ask for five six seven articles, Aneca asks for many
articles and many monographs and I have a slow pace
not because I don't want to have the pace I have to have, but
because I need that time beforehand to prepare
the work that I am going to translate into an article or
a monograph or whatever, so when my colleagues get
two monographs, I am still scanning the material from
the first one. this could be solved partly yes and
partly no, the part that is impossible because I am blind and
I assume that and that is never going to be fixed and I assume that
it has to be like that and that I have had to do it, so I assume it as such, I
work much harder than the rest, because If you like the scratching then you do not mind the licebut there is another part,
for example, that all books should have an accessible format
for the blind, that can be done is that the web pages please, please,
it is very easy for the web pages to be accessibledon't put
little drawings or put little drawings because that looks very nice, I understand it,
I have been sighted and that is beatiful, but put a button next to it so that I can press it and also
enter as you enter, that it is not so important for a
person who studies law to have to go abroad, I would love to
go abroad, but if I love to travel but I cannot
travel, my husband is blind and he will not go with me, to
have a double problem, we better stay as we are, right?
and I also have a little girl,
my poor little girl says don't worry because when I'm
older I'll go with you but now she's very little, she's thirteen years old.So,
I have never asked for anything and I don't want anything that doesn't come from
an absolutely personal effort, the only thing I do want is that,
please, both Aneca, which I also want to accredit and the rest
of the people because I work for something thus Aneca or the
the different institutions that deal with the issue of sexsenios and all that
should adapt, not facilitate, I am not asking for privileges, I
don't want them to facilitate anything, I don't want them to give me anything for free, but
I do want them to adapt a specific pathway for people with disabilities.
I am sure that with the same effort, doing the same
work, they can reach the same goal as the others.María del Mar, the truth is that you have been
very clear, thank you very much for participating not only
with us, but also for telling us your experience and giving us details of where
we have to goand I think that this is a key issue, it is obvious that
among other things that you have mentioned, Aneca has to include
in its DNA that it is about giving equal opportunities to
people and that people who are diverse have to have criteria
that change a little, that they are not homogeneous and rigid, they
should accept this and I think that your message is very clear, let's hope
that this is the case. and thank you very much because everything you have done
is going to help other teachers a lot, thank you very much
I'm sure we can continue commenting later but we've run out
of time. The last speaker will be Ramón Rico, the
topic we are going to discuss is multidisciplinarity and excellence
in research, diversity management in science teams
Ramón Rico has a PhD and is a professor of management at the
University Carlos III of Madrid and the University of
Western Australia. He has worked, among other research topics,
precisely on the diversity of teams in the adaptation
leadership etc.he has played a very important role
in editorial issues in the best international journals
in his field, in particular, he is currently editor of
the academy of management review, has been a visitor to
universities all over the world and has also
participated as an advisor and consultant in sports,
team building for health and other
areas. so, thank you Ramon for being with us,
I'm going to ask you a first question from your
point of view, do we really need diverse teams in universities and to do
science? Well, the direct answer
is yes, because the increasing complexity of the scientific
problems we work on prevents a team
made up of researchers from a single discipline
from being able to handle all the information necessary to effectively
solve all the tasks that these
problems require. we know from scientific evidence
that diverse approaches decisively increase our
the ability to innovate not only to be creative and in this
sense, it has a lot to do with what Professor
Yuko said earlier about flexibility,
adaptability and being able to do different things.
Unfortunately, research shows that
teams of highly specialised experts in a particular field
are not very capable of offering satisfactory solutions in novel situations.
However, we know that when we combine
different views on a problem and bring together knowledge
from various disciplines, then the ability to respond
to novel situations and the adaptability of the team
increases significantly. there are many examples in the scientific
literature and in the applications that we use on a daily basis,
for example when Netflix has decided to improve
the algorithm to provide its customers with better
recommendations Ramón and how we should manage these teams
to ensure that collaboration is not inefficient and that
they are not obstacles to collaboration in research,
in your experience, what should be done? there is a question
that has to do with what are the effects
that diversity has on performance we do not
investigate diversity as a variable how that variable is distributed
we do not investigate whether having more women having more men
having more people with a certain education or less, but rather,
we seek for how certain variables match up we are
in a logic that has more to do with the emergence of subgroups
in a team, when these subgroups emerge in a significant way,
we are talking about the existence of a flaw in the team, This flaw
is very strong, what happens is that there is a prejudice on
performance, the negative effect is overwhelming
because the contributions of the members
of other groups that are different from us or that we understand as
different are undervalued, it increases with task and relationship conflicts
and even in a recent research we have just found
that the uncivic behaviours that occur within
the teams due to discrimination by stereotypes by
prejudice so what they end up doing is that the team members
want to leave the team and even the organisation
so the idea really the mantra that we work with and now I will comment
on three or four ways of dealing with that diversity we need
teams that are diverse but that share enough to
make the most of their differences, that's the mantra
that we work with in managing diversity. so the sub-groups
are going to appear, diversity is always going to be there and we have to
embrace it and make it a part of us. this is part of
the way we compose teams today and it is
so, so, let's say that this moderate diversity, these
subgroups with a moderate strength improve performance,
better decisions are made and above all social integration increases
that is, satisfaction with the team, cohesion with
the team, which in the end generates greater viability. and you asked me,
how do we manage that there is no direct prescription, it is true that we do
science looking for a generalisation spirit
but we have to take into account that the applications are always
on single cases. therefore we have to make an assessment of the circumstances
of each team etc. but we are going to make four general recommendations
that are easy to remember, first of all
we know that the effects of diversity in teams depend
a lot on contextual elements of the team itself, therefore, for
example, the clarity of the team structure is fundamental to
allow the subgroups that may emerge in the team
not to generate extreme positions, well, the fact of clarifying the
roles the fact of clarifying the resources assigned to the roles and
the structure of the type itself facilitates a lot in this same
line, we know that the way in which we organise the work
has a great influence on the functioning of the team, in this sense
there is often a tendency to separate the organisation of the tasks
between the subgroups that already exist in the team, when
we know that what we have to do is to cross members of
different subgroups in joint tasks so that they de-categorise themselves,
so that they do not think that the others are
as bad as you think they are and you realise that there are
very nice people in all configurations. furthermore, you have to illuminate,
let's put it this way, the common goal structure of the team.
we tend to think that we have to crush the identities that
emerge from each of the subgroups, and this is a mistake. all the
theory of intergroup relations tells us that no, it is better to have
a double identity, i.e. we appreciate the identity of the subgroup
but above all we clearly illuminate the identity
of the whole team. and finally, there is a question
that Yuko also raised earlier that has to do
with the fact of appreciating diversity, we know that
training people to appreciate the diversity of the people
who make up the team and the possibilities and potential
of this diversity is an element that makes it easier for diversity to be
related to the effectiveness of the team. and finally, teams
are very sensitive to how they are treated by the people who lead them,
so we know from leadership theory that if we establish
relationships that differentiate the members of the
team, we will increase the differences that already exist, that is,
the management itself, the leadership itself in the team will increase,
will reinforce even more those existing potential subgroups
if I, as a leader, treat one subgroup differently from
another. Therefore, there should be little differentiation in the way
I manage this and a lot of quality in the amount of support
I offer to protect precisely the members
of the subgroups from the possible defects of stereotyping and so on.
thank you very much Ramón, we have run out of time,
I wanted to thank all four of you for your participation,
you know that at Carlos III University we are especially
sensitive to this issue because diversity is in our DNA
thank you very much for the comments and recommendations
that you have made, we are sure that our vice-rector for faculty
and the deputy vice-rector Montse, will adopt concrete
measures that can help us to improve and
without further ado we close this first table and good luck to all of you,
see you soon.thank you thank you
Hello everyone, good afternoon, my name is Susana Roja and I welcome you to this second discussion
panel in which we are going to talk about professional
academic and, above all, life careers. it is entitled as you know
the need to apply the holistic approach of the European Charter
for Researchers and the Code of Conduct for the Recruitment
of Researchers. thank you Álvaro
for your moderation at the previous discussion panel I am going to ask
the speakers to connect and we are already
looking at the first of them, one of the three experts
who are going to join me at this second discussion panel to see what
mobility means for their careers in this holistic approach
.each one of them will talk to us about the aspect in which they can
make their most personal contribution as we have heard so far. I welcome
you Maribel, because we are joined by Maribel Canto who
is Associate Professor, Leicester Law School of the University of
Leicester, thank you for being with us, how are you Maribel?
Very well, thank you
very much for joining us and I would also like to welcome Javier López
who is the director of social impact at Santander Universities, he is an expert
in professional careers, I am going to ask Javier if he would be so kind as
to greet us and turn on his camera so that
the four of us can be together on screen for more than a hundred people
who are following us on this conference. Javier, can you hear us,
good afternoon Javier? We're going to give you a few seconds because maybe
we'll see you there, how are you doing? Very well, thank you very much for the invitation, delighted to be
in a house that we share as president, a president of
Santander Universities is at the same time president of the social
council of the Universidad Carlos III.
fantastic, thank you very much welcome Javier and I would also like to greet Francisco
Marcellán who is professor of applied mathematics
at the Carlos III University and president of the
Spanish Royal Mathematical Society as well as former
secretary general for scientific and technological policy.How are you, Francisco?
hello good afternoon and everyone, it is a pleasure to be at
this meeting that aims to go beyond the local geographies
of the campuses.
welcome to the three of you and we are going to start if you like we are going to start
with Maribel I want to start with her because we want to
talk about life experiences in your case Maribel
and we are going to talk about interrupted or late careers and
I am going to allow myself to go a little bit into your personal life to
tell you that you are the daughter of parents who emigrated to Germany you were born
there you graduated in law in Malaga you are the mother of three children and I am talking
about your personal life because when we think of a
global vision of your professional life it is
essential to know your personal conditions as well as a woman
and as a mother, do you think that an interruption in
your academic career is punished and if so why? Well, very briefly,
of course, the answer is in capital letters yes, in 1995
I finished my degree at university in Spain and I decided
to go to England to learn English. I wanted to study
international law, in 1995, in 1996
I got married and left the academic world completely. in
2017, well, I get divorced and I find myself with
three children, a nine year old, a seven year old and a four year old and my idea
is to do what I have always liked, to return to the academic world.
in 2007 I wanted to return to Spain, I wanted to go to
university and I found myself, I don't know if the word is
the right one, but I wasn't affiliated with any kind of department,
I had no contacts, I knew friends who did follow the established route
and they were in those universities but
when I told them that I was totally motivated, that it was
what I wanted to do, the truth is that I didn't have the possibility
of entering university. I was someone who
had cut that path and it was too big a barrier
for me to follow and thinking about these kinds of barriers
makes me quite sad to think about, because
I imagine that there must be many people whose careers have been
interrupted for much sadder reasons than mine
economic reasons, sickness reasons and there is no way
back, that way is the problem. For me, the way
out of that was to stay in the UK, which
showed me a way forward. In 2007 I started
a Masters at the university I am now at in Leicester
and I got a scholarship to do my PhD in English
and since then, of course, that motivation and that experience
has been valued in the UK. so, this is my message, that
I think the path should be, either to make parallel paths or to widen
the path so that people who don't follow the established path
have the opportunity because it doesn't mean that we don't have
the motivation, we don't have the talent and in fact whoever wants to
look at my biography, I don't want to boast, but I have achieved
a lot in the time frame from 2007 to 2021
from actually starting with a Master's degree
to 2021 to have a place in an English university.
so, yes, that's my contribution if
it can help anybody. sure it can,
that's the idea Maribel, that we can share those obstacles as you say
and also see the ways together to widen the path.
I'll take your words and I'm also going to ask the 111 people
who are with us, the 111 people who are with us,
if they have any comments to make or any questions for
the three of us as speakers, to share them in the chat and,
of course, I will send any of the questions that arise.
Maribel if you don't mind I'm going to pass on to Javier
to make another type of approach, which is another vision, that of the
private sector to see how to promote mobility thinking about the future
and thinking about widening this path. Javier, why do you think a research
career model is needed? well, I would like to follow the words of my predecessor,
I think that what is needed is to set the rules of the road,
to paint the road, to put the appropriate traffic signs
to enter and exit and that is very good from any perspective.
starting with the first, that of the researcher,
a researcher has to know what his or her alternatives
may be in a scientific career, there are some data that are a bit devastating,
every hundred people who read a doctoral thesis, perhaps no more
than fifteen or twenty, end up developing a full scientific career
in an academy, university or research centre.
This means that there are eighty-five who have to develop
their careers elsewhere, be it in a company, a hospital,
an NGO, a foundation or on television, and it is therefore important
that in the scientific career plans that exist, a lot of work is done
on elements such as transversal competences,
which allow scientists to develop these
other alternative routes to the main road.
and also to be able to return to it if necessary, as in the case
of our colleague, if we look at it from the perspective of an institution,
a university or a research centre, strengthening the
competences for the mobility of researchers
is what will allow you to have high quality scientific productions,
to be able to stand out even in some disciplines
in the international context and therefore be a point
of reference in the scientific context to attract talent. To attract talent, if we
join a company we like to know the rules of that
company and the career options, so the clearer
we show those rules, that roadmap, the easier it will be
for talent to come and work or do research with us.
even for the work of more advanced researchers
who are already full professors, also to be
able to lead teams much better and to be able to make
honest and transparent proposals to those who are entering the scientific career.
Therefore, having a scientific career model, having these rules, this
road with explicit and transparent rules painted on it,
is really useful to be able to accompany the development of scientific
careers. thank you Javier, I'm going with you Francisco,
we can talk to you about the experience of mobility in the public sector
and the university, tell us about this management, what
this road is like. well, this road starts from a central point, I'm going to talk
about the need to draw signs, but fundamentally, we
must be clear that the university is a centre of learning
not only of students who want to learn and professors who
know and want to transmit their knowledge, but also of professors
who get used to acquiring skills at university that
are not acquired in a generalised way. I could point out,
firstly, group management, time management, assessment
learning and, above all, an issue that seems to me to be
fundamental, which is accountability.
these are four concepts that in the public sector should generate
an important know-how and we can do this know-how in the university,
but this is acquired spontaneously, there is no systematic methodology to
deepen these facts. I am particularly concerned
about time management in the university. in the university we
have the impression that we have indefinite time, and we have to learn to distribute our time
because the problem is not our time, but
the time of others. my personal experience has been as
vice-rector for nine years, vice-rector of research
and later for four years I shared management capacities in
ANECA as general secretary of scientific and
technological policy and the minister of education
and science, and I have been linked to the
Spanish Royal Mathematical Society for nine
years as vice-president and president. being in the university
and learning the university has allowed me to work better in these places and there is an issue
that I think is worrying and that is how to move from the university
to the public sector, the administrative obstacles to moving, we are
talking about endogamy as a centre or as a method of strengthening
people, but there are very few stimuli for
mobility. mobility between universities, mobility towards the public
sector and above all in the civil service, it should be remembered that
for the first time in the science law of 2011, a leave
of absence was allowed for a maximum of five years so that
civil servants could go to the private sector to
work. What I mean by this is that we have to break down
barriers, mainly bureaucratic ones, which allow us to transfer
what we have learned at university to public management. you were talking about barriers,
which was the same as what Maribel started by telling us, let's talk
about barriers but if you don't mind in this round of questions
I'm going to ask you, we are going to focus on the solution. we know
that these barriers exist and I am going to ask you Maribel, we also
know from your experience that in the UK they welcomed you, they were
more open with your career, they understood your situation of course,
and you deserve it without any doubt, I am sure you must have worked hard for it.
today, after all those years there, after achieving what you
achieved, Maribel, what should the Spanish university
do, in your opinion, to learn from others? I think that one of
the most important things is flexibility, there has to be
a much more flexible path because society is changing
a lot and we have to welcome all groups and different
groups. if we have this path, as we are all using it,
this path that is so inflexible does not give us the
opportunity to have the real conversations, to say, why
on this path I don't have someone different from how I am for
example, because at the end, when you get to
the end of this path, the people who can really change
things, they are situated at the end of that path and they have done
well. and it is very difficult for them to understand, for them to have that kind of, I
think we need conversations in Spanish universities
like the ones we are having here,
conversations in which people ask questions and reflect
on why, why they are different. For example, what I have seen
in the UK is that it is very much about talent and it is also
very much about what a person offers, so, I went to university
with a project and the university accepted that project,
the university, well I don't know much, that's the truth,
how good universities are in Spain. for example, my university
40% of teachers are non-British I don't know how it will compare
but there is a very different kind of atmosphere because
there are different cultures, as Yoko said before,
for example, I haven't changed, I don't know if unfortunately I haven't
changed at all at my university, the English give me hugs,
they give me two kisses. I have brought,
I mean, I am very proud of my culture, and I think that the students benefit
, my classmates benefit, the university
benefits from this kind of opening up different paths. and the solutions
are different, the integration of so many people is very
important. And another, to finish, a very important
thing that I think we haven't touched on much is the idea of the model,
different people, that is, someone like me is going to tell a
student if you start your career late, if you interrupt your
career, you have a chance to get what you
want when you have motivation and want to work.
I give myself as an example but also people from other cultures
is that model that people, not only say that we are diverse,
we believe in all this, no, demonstrate it with people
who can be role models, so that, I mean, my idea is to open
more routes, open more conversations, be more flexible, that
means that you are going to have happier students,
happier colleagues, a better university and I would dare say
a much better society. thank you Maribel, since
we started and we just came up with the analogy of the road, well I understand
that we are talking about mobility, but we are also talking about
diversity and we are talking about walking on the road.
is to make a way that is not only the design, but also to apply it
in real life to be a good example. I took the opportunity to read to all
of you the comment of Begoña Herrero that says totally
in agreement after listening to you speak Maribel,
the maternity comments is a terrible obstacle to make academic
career and in the face of the ANECA, there is no understanding.
how a mother with two small children is asked to go on a six-month
stay at a foreign university under the same conditions
as someone with no children, nobody reflects on how difficult it is,
the criteria should be made more flexible.
Let's leave Begoña's comment here and move on to Javier because
we are now in this part where I would like us to look for
solutions, to think positively, Javier, in your opinion, what
needs to be done, what are the levers for an institution to support
a professional career? I am going to take advantage of a comment by Francisco
who spoke about the legal and regulatory framework that creates
significant barriers, it is very difficult for a researcher and,
on many occasions, a rector's team to change. I want to
focus on what is within the reach of the researchers themselves
or the rectorate teams and I also take the example of the United Kingdom,
in the United Kingdom they work a lot on training in transversal competencies,
on what Francisco also talked about, time
management, leadership, consciously accompanying
the careers of scientists. I'm going to give you a couple of facts to
make me understand a British scientist is invited to do a
programme called wa the school, a programme where they learn to manage basic
communication and teamwork skills, etc. but the
supervisors, the thesis supervisors, are also trained to
accompany these doctoral students and a statistic
to make me understand, those who do the wa school programme read 54%
read the thesis in time and form and with better marks
than those who have not done this programme. but if the thesis has been
supervised by a thesis supervisor who has done a supervision programme, this rises
from 54% to 74%. those who have not, let's say, used this
therapy, now that clinical trials are so fashionable,
only 14% read the thesis on time,
in the time agreed with the thesis supervisor
and with the best grade. this is within
the reach of researchers on their own initiative, it is within the reach
of the academic heads of universities,
beyond the rules that make roads more
curvy or straighter, and this is something we can
work on. There is an invitation from the European Union through
the hrs4r label, Human
Resources Excellence in Research, which is a model of accreditation of how
research is organised in a university that gives many
clues as to how to work in this direction. Therefore, researchers of their own
free will can be concerned and take charge of their scientific
career and train their skills to have a better
carreer within and outside academia, and academic leaders
can provide these frameworks, these specific
training or professional support in scientific careers,
which are independent of whether there are more or less barriers
to the development of scientific careers. Thank you Javier, it's your turn
now Francisco, because I would like to see with you the opportunities,
speaking positively in the public sector, but also to see these opportunities x
at the different university levels. yes, well, I think I insist
on the idea that the university is a space for collective learning,
for example, the university has a lot to learn from
its alumni, they are a basic source of information
and training for the university itself and they also serve to strengthen the university's institutional identity.
secondly, the university has to learn from its professors who have worked in the public sector,
professors who have worked in the framework of
public administration management, who have worked in
international organisations, given that this is not a personal know-how
for themselves but has to be shared with the institution. and I
would like to draw attention to the fact that at Carlos III I think there are many
people who have worked in the administration, in the public
sector, in the private sector, that the university should take
advantage of us, but the university does not take advantage of us. And thirdly there is
an issue, which is also very important, is the issue of interface
spaces in which professors can work, our
university, I don't know if the whole university knows about it, has a
science park a science park in which
spinoff activities and business-university relations can be carried out and we should
encourage our students, with their final degree
projects that go beyond academic work or master's degree
projects or doctoral theses, to develop skills
that go beyond academic work. and it would be
a stimulus, not only for the students
at these three levels but also for the teaching staff, to seek
real life and not to confine ourselves to the restricted world of academia
because it generates bad practices and vices that are difficult to correct.
Francisco I think it's a great headline to touch on real life, it's a
great phrase to which I'll add Gonzalo Génova's comment,
who in turn was talking about Begoña's comment,
saying I totally agree, it's crazy even if you have the best support
from your family, talking about mobility in terms of the family.
we will have, I'm going to give you three minutes, I'll take advantage of
the time to see also Sara's comment that says,
the focus on mentoring is non-existent if there is a failure
in a group due to the ITS it is never investigated or
tried to be corrected. having said that, let's think positive and I'm going to
give you each a minute to tell me, and I'm going to start with you Maribel, what
would be the first step, what would be for you in one minute the
first thing to do to tackle this problem, to
tackle all those obstacles and start to focus on the career,
on a road in the best way possible. what is the first thing
in your opinion what should be done Maribel well, I think that
first we should have conversations and give a voice to those who
have interrupted their careers for whatever reason
and ask them how we can reintegrate them because
it has to be them, that is, the answer has to be from the bottom up,
not someone from above who doesn't know the situation
but the people who are affected by it. and the second thing
is to create, once we have this information, to create this
type of alternative, parallel or widening roads
so that those people who have the motivation, who have the
talent, who want to get out there, as you explained before,
who want to get there, because the whole problem is that this
talent escapes, that's the problem. So, I think it's about talking,
having conversations and starting to design but always listening
to those people to create solutions that really work
because you can't do things top-down, it has to be
from the bottom up and this is the way to do it.
because I don't know, it makes me very sad, if I had known
I would have gone to the Carlos III but I couldn't, but there are many
Spaniards in many very good universities, very talented,
for whom the path was very difficult. thank you Maribel
Javier, your minute of solutions how to touch real life, as Francisco said,
and where to start. I am also, as Maribel said, that we
have to talk to those who have to go down this path.
I am in favour of establishing transparent rules that allow
researchers, regardless of where they are in their career, whether they are
doing their doctorate, the first post-doctoral stage, etc.,
to see what their career options are within the
university, within the research centre, with their
entry and exit points, as Maribel said before.
I was looking here on the screen at the Medical Research
Council's scientific career model, which in the UK would be something like
the Carlos III Institute of Health, and I could
see how one can go from doctor to postdoc and can move towards
technical profiles or towards research profiles with various
leadership positions. This is on the website of the Medical
Research Council and any researcher interested in working
in this institution will find it immediately, and even knows
all the support programmes that this scientific institution
offers for career development, and even
talks about the possibilities of going out and entering into collaboration
with the world of business. having this framework
transparently defined in the environment of a university or research
centre would be the first step I would take and then
there are other elements that can be used to work on this framework
and boost the careers of researchers, but if we are talking
about a measure, define the rules of the game.thank you very much Javier your opinion Francisco,
a measure that you think would be ideal for immediate implementation
I think we have just, we may have just lost
Francisco
but if he will allow me from his words I am going
to read minds. I'm going to pretend to read Francisco's mind
and with the notes I have of everything he said, he talked about
how time management and soft-skills are essential,
that you have to think also about how to play and the real thing and to take
advantage of all the talent that he says he knows exists in
Spanish universities. what a pity not to have heard his
last minute of Francisco but we have had the possibility to listen to him
extensively in the first two questions. I would like to thank the three of you
very much, Maribel Canto, Javier López and of course
Francisco Marcellán, who I think we lost him for technical
reasons but we know that he is there
thank you very much to the university
for this option, for this opportunity it has given us
to debate such an interesting subject and I now give the floor to Nacho
Aedo to close this discussion panel
Well, I don't know if Paco, who logged on at the last second,
wants to say one last word, we have two minutes of
time left on the timetable and I don't want to
leave him speechless. yes well, what I think is important
is to say that the university should be a space for coexistence
and conviviality and that experiences like this allow us to talk about
real problems, not the problems that come
from above, as has been said before. we have to generate a reality
of action from the bottom up and I think that experiences such as
those we have had this afternoon can be an opportunity for
us to learn to combat the university in little boxes and propose
a university with communicating vessels that allow us to understand
the peculiarities of others and the difficulties of others
to survive in this academic jungle.
thank you Paco, it is just the time we had
arranged, for the first time in the four seminars,
we have arrived on time to close the seminar,
which I think is a good practice that we have to have,
to try to do things in the established time
and not to pass or exceed the established times.
The first thing I would like to do is to thank
all the speakers, those at this panel, the previous one and of course
Montse, who also participated, and also
to tell you that we take note of all the things you have said.
I think we have to keep learning, the road is a long one, and we have to
try to see how we can incorporate all these ideas
into the university's priorities. with this,
thank you very much to all of you and see you at the next seminar,
in a month and a half or two months we will be here, thank you very much
thank you, thank you thank you thank you thank you